6 days, 16.5 hours of flying, 2500 miles, all VFR. The perfect escape from a
brutal Iowa winter!

Here are few PIREPS from the journey:

- Thanks to great weather and a nice tailwind, I climbed to 5500 feet,
leveled out -- and never changed course or altitude again till we touched
down 4.8 hours later. We could easily have made Florida in five hours
non-stop, a new record for us.

- Following Jim Burns' advice, we stopped short in Bay-Minett, Alabama for
fuel. This is a WONDERFUL place to stop, with a great FBO, incredibly
helpful and friendly people, reasonably priced MOGAS (thank God!), and nice
long runways. Tanking up there saved us over $100 compared to Pensacola
fuel prices.

- Pensacola has a nice airport, but I'm really glad we stopped short in
Bay-Minett to buy fuel. The folks in Pensacola barely looked up from their
paper, didn't have a line-guy tell us where to park, didn't move a muscle to
help us carry a ton of luggage (or offer a cart), didn't tie us down, and
generally regarded us as a somewhat amusing nuisance on their ramp. We won't
return.

- The Naval Aviation Museum at the Pensacola Naval Air Station is fantastic.
The fact that the Navy moved the old Cubi Bar from our now-abandoned Subic
Bay Naval Base in the Philippines -- and I mean EVERYTHING, from the
squadron plaques right down to the barstools -- made it all the better. This
museum was the last one of our "must-see-before-we die" aviation museums in
the US -- now we have to start on Europe.

- St. Petersburg's downtown airport, Albert Whittig, is every bit as cool as
Meigs Field in Chicago was! Landing on that little 2800 foot by 100 foot
wide runway, I was surprised to see SAILBOATS at the end of the runway! And,
yes, they were in the water. Precision is rewarded.

- St. Pete's Beach, on a little barrier island in the Gulf, just off-shore
from St. Petersburg, is an outstanding place to recover from winter. I
wouldn't want to live there, but miles of white sand beach and mid-80s sure
felt good.

- Thanks to Jim, who's as Irish as they come, we managed to find not one
but TWO great Irish pubs (one in Pensacola, one in St. Pete) where we could
celebrate St. Patty's day, his birthday, and their wedding anniversary.
Another great use for the internet!

- Muscle Shoals, AL is always a nice place to stop for fuel. Great,
under-utilized facility, nice people, relatively cheap fuel. We always stop
there on our way back from Florida.

- Spirit of St. Louis has a nice airport, and the Jet Corp FBO is extremely
nice -- but they are used to the jet crowd. We paid $5.20 per gallon for
100LL! Next time, we won't simply taxi into the closest FBO when there are
several to choose from. (We knew when we saw the *free* Starbucks coffee
and individually custom wrapped, fresh-baked chocolate chip cookies that we
were in for a world of hurt -- but it sure was a nice place.)

- The flooding in Missouri was incredible. After flying over a "normal"
Mississippi River one day, and then (just 5 days later) flying over after
15" of rain, the difference was amazing. We saw many isolated farmhouses,
and lots of Coast Guard helicopter performing rescue work. (They were
staging out of KSUS)

- If you've never been to City Museum in St. Louis, make plans now. This
was our third visit, and we always leave wanting more. It's an
indescribable place, sorta like a museum on acid -- but where else would
they stick an old LearJet on a four story pole, and then weld up re-bar
coils to let kids (and us bigger kids) safely climb up to it?

Florida ain't cheap, but, boy did it feel good to hit the beach for a day or
two. We made it down in record time (thanks to our 84 gallon fuel load) and
truly enjoyed a few days away from the late-winter Midwest.

Click to view pix from our flight:

http://www.alexisparkinn.com/2008_florida_trip.htm

Blue skies!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Nice post as usual, Jay. Thanx. It's probably the only way this old
Walter Mitty is gonna get to FL.

Nice post, thanks.
That Lear Jet at the museum is fantastic!!!

John

Jay Honeck wrote:
> 6 days, 16.5 hours of flying, 2500 miles, all VFR. The perfect escape from a
> brutal Iowa winter!
>
> Here are few PIREPS from the journey:
>
> - Thanks to great weather and a nice tailwind, I climbed to 5500 feet,
> leveled out -- and never changed course or altitude again till we touched
> down 4.8 hours later. We could easily have made Florida in five hours
> non-stop, a new record for us.
>
> - Following Jim Burns' advice, we stopped short in Bay-Minett, Alabama for
> fuel. This is a WONDERFUL place to stop, with a great FBO, incredibly
> helpful and friendly people, reasonably priced MOGAS (thank God!), and nice
> long runways. Tanking up there saved us over $100 compared to Pensacola
> fuel prices.
>
> - Pensacola has a nice airport, but I'm really glad we stopped short in
> Bay-Minett to buy fuel. The folks in Pensacola barely looked up from their
> paper, didn't have a line-guy tell us where to park, didn't move a muscle to
> help us carry a ton of luggage (or offer a cart), didn't tie us down, and
> generally regarded us as a somewhat amusing nuisance on their ramp. We won't
> return.
>
> - The Naval Aviation Museum at the Pensacola Naval Air Station is fantastic.
> The fact that the Navy moved the old Cubi Bar from our now-abandoned Subic
> Bay Naval Base in the Philippines -- and I mean EVERYTHING, from the
> squadron plaques right down to the barstools -- made it all the better. This
> museum was the last one of our "must-see-before-we die" aviation museums in
> the US -- now we have to start on Europe.
>
> - St. Petersburg's downtown airport, Albert Whittig, is every bit as cool as
> Meigs Field in Chicago was! Landing on that little 2800 foot by 100 foot
> wide runway, I was surprised to see SAILBOATS at the end of the runway! And,
> yes, they were in the water. Precision is rewarded.
>
> - St. Pete's Beach, on a little barrier island in the Gulf, just off-shore
> from St. Petersburg, is an outstanding place to recover from winter. I
> wouldn't want to live there, but miles of white sand beach and mid-80s sure
> felt good.
>
> - Thanks to Jim, who's as Irish as they come, we managed to find not one
> but TWO great Irish pubs (one in Pensacola, one in St. Pete) where we could
> celebrate St. Patty's day, his birthday, and their wedding anniversary.
> Another great use for the internet!
>
> - Muscle Shoals, AL is always a nice place to stop for fuel. Great,
> under-utilized facility, nice people, relatively cheap fuel. We always stop
> there on our way back from Florida.
>
> - Spirit of St. Louis has a nice airport, and the Jet Corp FBO is extremely
> nice -- but they are used to the jet crowd. We paid $5.20 per gallon for
> 100LL! Next time, we won't simply taxi into the closest FBO when there are
> several to choose from. (We knew when we saw the *free* Starbucks coffee
> and individually custom wrapped, fresh-baked chocolate chip cookies that we
> were in for a world of hurt -- but it sure was a nice place.)
>
> - The flooding in Missouri was incredible. After flying over a "normal"
> Mississippi River one day, and then (just 5 days later) flying over after
> 15" of rain, the difference was amazing. We saw many isolated farmhouses,
> and lots of Coast Guard helicopter performing rescue work. (They were
> staging out of KSUS)
>
> - If you've never been to City Museum in St. Louis, make plans now. This
> was our third visit, and we always leave wanting more. It's an
> indescribable place, sorta like a museum on acid -- but where else would
> they stick an old LearJet on a four story pole, and then weld up re-bar
> coils to let kids (and us bigger kids) safely climb up to it?
>
> Florida ain't cheap, but, boy did it feel good to hit the beach for a day or
> two. We made it down in record time (thanks to our 84 gallon fuel load) and
> truly enjoyed a few days away from the late-winter Midwest.
>
> Click to view pix from our flight:
>
> http://www.alexisparkinn.com/2008_florida_trip.htm
>
> Blue skies!

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:NWrHj.96911$yE1.61751@attbi_s21...
>6 days, 16.5 hours of flying, 2500 miles, all VFR. The perfect escape from
>a brutal Iowa winter!
>
> Here are few PIREPS from the journey:
>

Jay: Great story and pics.Let's hope it warms up
here in the northeast soon.

Bob Barker N8749S

> Well...Thanks Pal... I'm just a couple of miles up the road from St Pete
> and you don't even want to have a beer?.... I'll remember this.

Sorry, Bob -- that really WAS stupid of us!

In our defense, we really, honestly didn't know we were headed to Florida
until the morning we left -- and we were meeting Jim & Tami there, and it
was their anniversary, and we were thinking of finding ...

Oh, hell...okay, I've got nuthin'. I just plain forgot you were in that
neck of the woods, Bob. I therefore owe you TWO fruity/girly drinks (with
umbrellas in them) at the next Sun N Fun we attend...or, if you EVER make it
up to OSH, dinner at Friar Tucks is on us!

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

> That Lear Jet at the museum is fantastic!!!

Isn't that a kick? City "Museum" (or whatever the heck you call it -- it's
so much more than a traditional museum) is the most amazing place I've ever
been. Their newest addition is a huge 1926 Wurlitzer pipe organ that --
when played inside that six-story former shoe factory -- sounds absolutely
phantom-of-the-opera astounding...

If you ever get to St. Louis, check City Museum out. No pictures or words
can adequately describe the place.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I thought you said it was global warming, the cure for winter...

Bertie

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in
news:1HCHj.97663$yE1.68829@attbi_s21:

>> That Lear Jet at the museum is fantastic!!!
>
> Isn't that a kick? City "Museum" (or whatever the heck you call it --
> it's so much more than a traditional museum) is the most amazing place
> I've ever been. Their newest addition is a huge 1926 Wurlitzer pipe
> organ that -- when played inside that six-story former shoe factory
> -- sounds absolutely phantom-of-the-opera astounding...
>
> If you ever get to St. Louis, check City Museum out. No pictures or
> words can adequately describe the place.

Great aviationcontenet, there, Jaybo.


Bertie

On Mar 29, 9:59*am, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> 6 days, 16.5 hours of flying, 2500 miles, all VFR. The perfect escape from a
> brutal Iowa winter!
> - Thanks to great weather and a nice tailwind, I climbed to 5500 feet,
> leveled out -- and never changed course or altitude again till we touched

Jay,

Thank you for the great pirep. With the report of all VFR in 6 days
of flying, you convinced us that it can be safe to make the trip from
NY to Florida this time of the year. We have always wanted to make
the trip in early spring but were quite leery of weather. In the
Northeast, weather swings wildly this time of the year.

An example of this was our short flight of 126nm from Poughkeepsie,
NY to Nashua, NH for the New England Aviation Safety Expo yesterday.
Both TAFs and other weather sites predicted perfect VFR weather. We
planned for both IFR and VFR just in case. Sure enough the next
morning a totally unpredicted snow squall visited KPOU leaving snow
flakes on top of the frost on the wing. It blew over quickly but our
departure was delayed by over an hour.

Rick did not want to file IFR since we were legal but did feel
proficient enough and there was always strong icing possibility if we
ever got in the clouds. So we departed VFR climbing to 7500' following
the IFR route and tuning in approach frequencies to practice our
instrument flying skills. Less than half an hour into the trip, we had
to descend to 5500' to conform to cloud separation rule. Before long,
we had to go down to 3500'. About 15 miles to our destination, even
though ATIS stated 4000' broken ceiling, the cloud and mist was down
to 2000' and the terrain was rising.

To avoid scud running, we had no choice but to find a blue hole to
circle up (the commercial chandelles would be handy but Rick did not
think it was needed). I called Boston approach and asked for a popup
IFR clearance to descend back down through the cloud. They told us to
maintain VFR at 5000' with a 360 heading. This would get us into to
cloud so Rick circled inside our little blue hole to remain VFR. ATC
got back and asked us why we were heading south! Once they learned of
the situation they quickly gave us IFR clearance and vectored us
around to avoid the paths of other aircrafts. One of them was
supposedly VFR and stated that he could not see us! I told approach
that we were in the cloud at 4000'.

So Rick got about 20 minutes of real IMC since it was not VFR until
we got down to around 1500' with the airport about 4 miles straight
ahead. ATIS still gave a rosy scenario of 4000' broken ceiling and
visibility of 10 miles or so but it was quite misty with some snow
flurries. During the time we were in the cloud, I nervously monitored
the meat thermometer for icing signs and was quite relieved to find
none.

The trip back was perfect VFR all the way. I stayed at 8500' to be
above the layer of scattered clouds at 6000' and calm flying
condition. It was perfect to maintain my goal of
2degrees-2knots-20feet variations. About 30 miles to KPOU, I started
to descend and it was bumpy all the way down. I did a short field
landing on 33 with wind at 35, 9knots gusting to 20. It was a routine
landing with all the landing practices that we had done for the
commercial check rides.

I am quite curious on your reason of staying at 5500 feet for the
entire trip. Was it because of the ceiling? If there was no ceiling
problem, I'd think that flying at 7500 would be calmer and more fuel
efficient especially with a tail wind.

I will save your post for our future Florida trips.

Regards,

Hai Longworth

> I will save your post for our future Florida trips.

The secret to doing long, multi-day VFR cross country flights is to be
relaxed and flexible about your ultimate destination. Remember, we always
have three destinations flight-planned, and choose the one with the best
long-range weather prognosis on our day of departure. Thus, even though we
once again hoped to go to the Hangar Hotel in Texas, for the third spring in
a row we scrubbed the idea and headed direct to Florida, thanks to
nasty-looking predicted weather in the Texas panhandle.

The other "secret" (although it's hardly rare) is to have XM weather. With
that incredible tool on board, we know what we're flying toward hours in
advance, and can make adjustments accordingly.

For example, we left Pensacola (heading South to St. Pete) with conditions
marginal VFR and deteriorating. However, with XM weather (and a thorough
pre-flight weather briefing), we knew that flying North (away from the gulf,
which was pumping the moisture on-shore, causing the lowering
visibility/ceiling) would get us quickly into nice VFR, and then (at
Tallahassee) we could hang a right and head straight south in good (if
incredibly turbulent) VFR. From Tallahassee South, ceilings were 3500
scattered-to-broken, and the view of the gulf was fantastic.

I would NEVER have attempted that flight "pre-XM", simply because I'd be
trying to paint a picture of weather in my head from a radio briefing (IF
you could even get ahold of Flight Service), and you'd have no idea of the
"big picture" that live XM paints so wonderfully for you.

With XM, however, it was just another routine flight. Not comfortable,
thanks to the bumps (and, yes, it would have been nice to have gone on top
of the layer, where conditions were reported to be smooth by Jim & Tami, who
were IFR in their Aztec), but entirely safe.

Re: Flying at 5500 feet, my lovely wife has corrected me -- we *did* climb
to 7500 feet after departing Iowa City, and never deviated again until we
landed in Bay-Minett, AL.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in
news:nsWHj.45808$TT4.14344@attbi_s22:

>> I will save your post for our future Florida trips.
>
> The secret to doing long, multi-day VFR cross country flights is to be
> relaxed and flexible about your ultimate destination. Remember, we
> always have three destinations flight-planned, and choose the one with
> the best long-range weather prognosis on our day of departure. Thus,
> even though we once again hoped to go to the Hangar Hotel in Texas,
> for the third spring in a row we scrubbed the idea and headed direct
> to Florida, thanks to nasty-looking predicted weather in the Texas
> panhandle.
>
> The other "secret" (although it's hardly rare) is to have XM weather.
> With that incredible tool on board, we know what we're flying toward
> hours in advance, and can make adjustments accordingly.
>
> For example, we left Pensacola (heading South to St. Pete) with
> conditions marginal VFR and deteriorating. However, with XM weather
> (and a thorough pre-flight weather briefing), we knew that flying
> North (away from the gulf, which was pumping the moisture on-shore,
> causing the lowering visibility/ceiling) would get us quickly into
> nice VFR, and then (at Tallahassee) we could hang a right and head
> straight south in good (if incredibly turbulent) VFR. From
> Tallahassee South, ceilings were 3500 scattered-to-broken, and the
> view of the gulf was fantastic.
>
> I would NEVER have attempted that flight "pre-XM", simply because I'd
> be trying to paint a picture of weather in my head from a radio
> briefing (IF you could even get ahold of Flight Service), and you'd
> have no idea of the "big picture" that live XM paints so wonderfully
> for you.

Good God, where is aviation heading?

Bertie

On Mar 30, 8:42 pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> I would NEVER have attempted that flight "pre-XM", simply because I'd be
> trying to paint a picture of weather in my head from a radio briefing (IF
> you could even get ahold of Flight Service), and you'd have no idea of the
> "big picture" that live XM paints so wonderfully for you.

Wait -- are you serious?

While in flight weather provides localized details of the changes in
weather after the preflight briefing, ANY pilot should have the big
and little pictures in his/her head before launching anytime, period.

In Flight wx data should simply confirm what you expect to happen, or
help educate you on how your interpretation/prognostics were wrong.

XM doesn't provide the depth of information available here:
http://aviationweather.gov/

And if you're relying on XM in lieu of a Standard wx brief, you're in
violation of the CFRs.


Dan Mc

>> I would NEVER have attempted that flight "pre-XM", simply because I'd be
>> trying to paint a picture of weather in my head from a radio briefing (IF
>> you could even get ahold of Flight Service), and you'd have no idea of
>> the
>> "big picture" that live XM paints so wonderfully for you.
>
> Wait -- are you serious?

Completely. XM weather gives you a weather picture that is absolutely
unparalleled in GA aircraft. Before we had it, we would have stayed in
Pensacola. After we had it, the flight from Pensacola to St. Pete was
completely routine.

> XM doesn't provide the depth of information available here:
> http://aviationweather.gov/

No one said it did. But it provides more than enough in-flight information
to make flying MUCH safer and more relaxing.

In my time, three things have utterly changed flying for the better:

1. GPS
2. ANR technology
3. XM weather

> And if you're relying on XM in lieu of a Standard wx brief, you're in
> violation of the CFRs.

As stated in my post, we obtained a standard weather briefing, as we do
before any flight.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Mar 30, 9:51 pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:


> XM weather gives you a weather picture that is absolutely
> unparalleled in GA aircraft.

Yes, but...

You -- as a pilot -- should have that "picture" in your mind, and be
able to predict the changes, rates of changes, and the impact of those
changes on your flight.

XM will help you adjust that picture, and should help you acquire that
skill more rapidly IF you take the approach that YOU have to know, and
not rely on the XM.

The XM -- as GPS -- should simply confirm what you already know.

Curmudgeon lament follows:

I guess it's here -- a whole generation of pilots following magenta
lines who will now be looking to fly through green and avoid the red
and yellow.

We should call them Crayola-viators.

Dan Mc

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in
news:WsXHj.45877$TT4.30055@attbi_s22:

>>> I would NEVER have attempted that flight "pre-XM", simply because
>>> I'd be trying to paint a picture of weather in my head from a radio
>>> briefing (IF you could even get ahold of Flight Service), and you'd
>>> have no idea of the
>>> "big picture" that live XM paints so wonderfully for you.
>>
>> Wait -- are you serious?
>
> Completely. XM weather gives y

Thanks be to God it will only be a Cherokee you destroy.



Bertie

Dan > wrote in news:1777fa59-5a2d-4171-af7f-
:

> On Mar 30, 9:51 pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
>
>> XM weather gives you a weather picture that is absolutely
>> unparalleled in GA aircraft.
>
> Yes, but...
>
> You -- as a pilot -- should have that "picture" in your mind, and be
> able to predict the changes, rates of changes, and the impact of those
> changes on your flight.
>
> XM will help you adjust that picture, and should help you acquire that
> skill more rapidly IF you take the approach that YOU have to know, and
> not rely on the XM.
>
> The XM -- as GPS -- should simply confirm what you already know.
>
> Curmudgeon lament follows:
>
> I guess it's here -- a whole generation of pilots following magenta
> lines who will now be looking to fly through green and avoid the red
> and yellow.
>
> We should call them Crayola-viators.
>


I fly with lots of them nowadays. i have a differnt name for them.

Bertie
>
>
>
>

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
.. .
> Dan > wrote in news:1777fa59-5a2d-4171-af7f-
> :
>
>> On Mar 30, 9:51 pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>> XM weather gives you a weather picture that is absolutely
>>> unparalleled in GA aircraft.
>>
>> Yes, but...
>>
>> You -- as a pilot -- should have that "picture" in your mind, and be
>> able to predict the changes, rates of changes, and the impact of those
>> changes on your flight.
>>
>> XM will help you adjust that picture, and should help you acquire that
>> skill more rapidly IF you take the approach that YOU have to know, and
>> not rely on the XM.
>>
>> The XM -- as GPS -- should simply confirm what you already know.
>>
>> Curmudgeon lament follows:
>>
>> I guess it's here -- a whole generation of pilots following magenta
>> lines who will now be looking to fly through green and avoid the red
>> and yellow.
>>
>> We should call them Crayola-viators.
>>
>
>
> I fly with lots of them nowadays. i have a differnt name for them.
>

We have a name for lamers like guys too - dinosaurs.

> I guess it's here -- a whole generation of pilots following magenta
> lines who will now be looking to fly through green and avoid the red
> and yellow.
>
> We should call them Crayola-viators.

That's funny. I just flew my family transcontinentally 2500 miles in a
single-piston-engine spam-can, all VFR, over a six day period, during the
most weather-variable time of year, using the best technology available --
and you're saying that using this technology makes me a "crayola-viator"?

You're not a curmudgeon -- you're a Luddite.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Maxwell" <luv^2^fly^99@^cox.^net> wrote in news:faYHj.45315$f8.11862
@newsfe23.lga:

>
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> Dan > wrote in news:1777fa59-5a2d-4171-af7f-
>> :
>>
>>> On Mar 30, 9:51 pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> XM weather gives you a weather picture that is absolutely
>>>> unparalleled in GA aircraft.
>>>
>>> Yes, but...
>>>
>>> You -- as a pilot -- should have that "picture" in your mind, and be
>>> able to predict the changes, rates of changes, and the impact of
those
>>> changes on your flight.
>>>
>>> XM will help you adjust that picture, and should help you acquire
that
>>> skill more rapidly IF you take the approach that YOU have to know,
and
>>> not rely on the XM.
>>>
>>> The XM -- as GPS -- should simply confirm what you already know.
>>>
>>> Curmudgeon lament follows:
>>>
>>> I guess it's here -- a whole generation of pilots following magenta
>>> lines who will now be looking to fly through green and avoid the
red
>>> and yellow.
>>>
>>> We should call them Crayola-viators.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I fly with lots of them nowadays. i have a differnt name for them.
>>
>
> We have a name for lamers like guys too - dinosaurs.
>
>
>

So, you admit to being one of the lusers who cant fly without electronic
crutches?

good for you. Relaising this is the first step towards realising you'll
soon be a statistic.

BTW, When I was a young pilot, I didn't see any of the previous
generation as dinosaurs.


Bertie

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in
news:QaYHj.45927$TT4.12175@attbi_s22:

>> I guess it's here -- a whole generation of pilots following magenta
>> lines who will now be looking to fly through green and avoid the red
>> and yellow.
>>
>> We should call them Crayola-viators.
>
> That's funny. I just flew my family transcontinentally 2500 miles in
> a single-piston-engine spam-can, all VFR, over a six day period,
> during the most weather-variable time of year, using the best
> technology available -- and you're saying that using this technology
> makes me a "crayola-viator"?
>
> You're not a curmudgeon -- you're a Luddite.

No, he's an aviator, and you are an idiot.


Bertie

> The XM -- as GPS -- should simply confirm what you already know.

I have re-read this absurd line a dozen times, and can find absolutely no
merit in any part of it. In fact, it illustrates such an ignorance of VFR
cross-country flying that I find it hard that a real pilot would post such a
thing.

Weather is a dynamic, ever-changing thing. If you're flying anywhere near a
front, as we were on this flight, over a five-hour duration (at spam-can
speeds of 170 mph), you cannot "already know" the weather without XM.

Without XM you can look out the window, you can call Flight Service, and you
can try to extrapolate the weather predictions you received from a briefer
five hours ago -- but you cannot "know" it in any way -- EXCEPT with XM
weather on board.

Which is what makes VFR cross-country flying much more possible (and
comfortable) nowadays than it was just a few years ago. Anyone who says
otherwise has either never flown cross-country VFR, or is so used to
flipping on the autopilot and droning along airways that they've completely
forgotten what this kind of flying is all about.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in
news:moYHj.45940$TT4.1716@attbi_s22:

>> The XM -- as GPS -- should simply confirm what you already know.
>
> I have re-read this absurd line a dozen times, and can find absolutely
> no merit in any part of it.

It's because you're an idiot. Don't worry about it. Be happy.
Go play with your flight sim.


Bertie

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Maxwell" <luv^2^fly^99@^cox.^net> wrote in news:faYHj.45315$f8.11862
> @newsfe23.lga:
>
>>
>
> BTW, When I was a young pilot, I didn't see any of the previous
> generation as dinosaurs.
>
>

I don't either, unless they're as useless as you.

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in
> news:moYHj.45940$TT4.1716@attbi_s22:
>
>>> The XM -- as GPS -- should simply confirm what you already know.
>>
>> I have re-read this absurd line a dozen times, and can find absolutely
>> no merit in any part of it.
>
> It's because you're an idiot. Don't worry about it. Be happy.
> Go play with your flight sim.
>
>

Doesn't the pathetic little narcissist inside you just love it when people
kill file you.

You always get the last word!!!!

Dan > wrote:
> Curmudgeon lament follows:
>
> I guess it's here -- a whole generation of pilots following magenta
> lines who will now be looking to fly through green and avoid the red
> and yellow.

Absurdist lament follows from previous one:

I too object - to the outsourcing of the job of looking at colored screens
and making life-and-death decisions based on what one sees there. As we all
know, that job properly belongs to ATC!

;-)

On Mar 30, 10:55 pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> Weather is a dynamic, ever-changing thing. If you're flying anywhere near a
> front, as we were on this flight, over a five-hour duration (at spam-can
> speeds of 170 mph), you cannot "already know" the weather without XM.
>
> Without XM you can look out the window, you can call Flight Service, and you
> can try to extrapolate the weather predictions you received from a briefer
> five hours ago -- but you cannot "know" it in any way -- EXCEPT with XM
> weather on board.
>

Jay,
I don't have XM weather yet but have witnessed its great benefit
while flying our long dual cross-country trips with an instructor (as
part of the commercial requirement). His plane is equipped with the
Garmin 430W, a stormscope and the Garmin 396. I totally agree that
weather is a dynamic, ever-changing thing and having XM weather
onboard helps with modifying your flight plan while enroute. However,
our instructor, Doug Stewart (dsflight.com), the National Flight
Instructor of the Year for 2004, kept emphasizing that XM weather
should be used as a strategic and not a tactical tool. The added
benefit of XM weather to ADDS info, duats, standard briefing, FSS is
that it gives you a much shorter term strategic plan. Two years ago
when we had to delay our trip from NY to Oshkosh a day due to
thunderstorms while Doug and another noted Aviation Safety Seminar
speaker, Bob Martens went ahead with their trip also from NY. I had
fun monitoring their flight path on flightware observing them skirting
around thunderstorm areas with the help of the stormscope and XM
weather.

I had done many cross country trips without the benefit of a GPS
(some of them not using GPS on purpose to practice our pilotage and
dead-reckoning skill). We have also flown many long trips (one all
the way from NY to CO) without the benefit of a weather tool on
board. Of course we can fly without GPS and XM weather but having
them on board will definitely make our trips much safer providing that
we follow the advice given in this AOPA article about Scott
Crossfield's accident " Don't let the equipment lead you into a place
you wouldn't go without it"

http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfarticles/2008/sp0804.html


Hai Longworth

On 2008-03-31, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> The other "secret" (although it's hardly rare) is to have XM weather. With
> that incredible tool on board, we know what we're flying toward hours in
> advance, and can make adjustments accordingly.

What are you lookign at to see what the cloud layers are like on your XM?
I've played around with my 496, and what it's showing me is great...but I
can't visualize what you're looking at to make your decisions.

This is something I'm interested in, since I'm planning a multi-day VFR trip
bringing the Zodiac home. (And yes, I'm planning to sop in Iowa City.)
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

On 2008-03-31, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> That's funny. I just flew my family transcontinentally 2500 miles in a
> single-piston-engine spam-can, all VFR, over a six day period, during the
> most weather-variable time of year, using the best technology available --
> and you're saying that using this technology makes me a "crayola-viator"?
>
> You're not a curmudgeon -- you're a Luddite.

What's that line about "all available information"?
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

"Maxwell" <luv^2^fly^99@^cox.^net> wrote in
:

>
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in
>> news:moYHj.45940$TT4.1716@attbi_s22:
>>
>>>> The XM -- as GPS -- should simply confirm what you already know.
>>>
>>> I have re-read this absurd line a dozen times, and can find
>>> absolutely no merit in any part of it.
>>
>> It's because you're an idiot. Don't worry about it. Be happy.
>> Go play with your flight sim.
>>
>>
>
> Doesn't the pathetic little narcissist inside you just love it when
> people kill file you.


Yep,. BTW, was that a question? You forgot the question mark.
>
> You always get the last word!!!!

Yes. Yes I do.


Bertie
>
>
>

"Maxwell" <luv^2^fly^99@^cox.^net> wrote in news:BGYHj.63831$y05.4606
@newsfe22.lga:

>
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> "Maxwell" <luv^2^fly^99@^cox.^net> wrote in news:faYHj.45315$f8.11862
>> @newsfe23.lga:
>>
>>>
>>
>> BTW, When I was a young pilot, I didn't see any of the previous
>> generation as dinosaurs.
>>
>>
>
> I don't either, unless they're as useless as you.
>
>
>

Bwawhawhahw!

You're just a meanie, you are.


Bertie

Jay Maynard > wrote in
:

> On 2008-03-31, Jay Honeck > wrote:
>> That's funny. I just flew my family transcontinentally 2500 miles in
>> a single-piston-engine spam-can, all VFR, over a six day period,
>> during the most weather-variable time of year, using the best
>> technology available -- and you're saying that using this technology
>> makes me a "crayola-viator"?
>>
>> You're not a curmudgeon -- you're a Luddite.
>
> What's that line about "all available information"?

Fine. I use all sorts of gadgerts too, but I can fly without any of them if
I have to, and I only use them sparingly in any case. The biggest problem
is ending up a slave to the machines.


Bertie

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>> I would NEVER have attempted that flight "pre-XM", simply because I'd be
>>> trying to paint a picture of weather in my head from a radio briefing
>>> (IF
>>> you could even get ahold of Flight Service), and you'd have no idea
>>> of the
>>> "big picture" that live XM paints so wonderfully for you.
>>
>> Wait -- are you serious?
>
> Completely. XM weather gives you a weather picture that is absolutely
> unparalleled in GA aircraft. Before we had it, we would have stayed in
> Pensacola. After we had it, the flight from Pensacola to St. Pete was
> completely routine.

Jay, you need some remedial weather analysis and flight planning
training. I've never had XM weather (OK, one flight with a friend with
a 496) and get along fine without it. I'm not saying I wouldn't like to
have it, but it isn't worth the cost to me. It gives a little more
convenience, but I can get the same and even more information from
several sources (DUAT, intellicast, weather channel, ADDS, etc., when it
comes to preflight. Enroute I do fine with my eyes, ASOS/AWOS,
listening to ATC and FSS. I see XM as a much more convenient tool for
inflight than for preflight and can't imagine making go/no-go decisions
simply because I have XM weather.


Matt

Jay Honeck wrote:
>> The XM -- as GPS -- should simply confirm what you already know.
>
> I have re-read this absurd line a dozen times, and can find absolutely
> no merit in any part of it. In fact, it illustrates such an ignorance
> of VFR cross-country flying that I find it hard that a real pilot would
> post such a thing.
>
> Weather is a dynamic, ever-changing thing. If you're flying anywhere
> near a front, as we were on this flight, over a five-hour duration (at
> spam-can speeds of 170 mph), you cannot "already know" the weather
> without XM.

You can actually keep a fairly accurate picture in mind with a
combination of listening to other airplanes and ATC, checking ASOS, AWOS
and ATIS along and to the side of your route and an occasional call to
FSS, although I find the latter only occasionally necessary when in IMC.

Matt

On Mar 30, 10:40 pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> That's funny. I just flew my family transcontinentally 2500 miles in a
> single-piston-engine spam-can, all VFR, over a six day period, during the
> most weather-variable time of year, using the best technology available --
> and you're saying that using this technology makes me a "crayola-viator"?

You certainly are a Crayola-viator if you simply followed the magenta
line and avoided the yellow and the red.

Do those colors *mean* anything to you?

Dude -- I *design* new technologies for the US Navy in my current
engineering job.

BUT -- and please read carefully -- VFR or IFR pilots who cannot
already "know" in their heads what the XM is displaying are poor
pilots who lack the understanding of weather required to fly cross
country.

And yeah -- I've flown XC VFR and IFR.

In VFR flight, the XM display should be used like the GPS display --
a confirmation of what you already know.

VFR is easy -- before you take off you did a full weather brief and
know where the VFR wx is and where it isn't. You know the movements of
the fronts, the dewpoints, and the topography and how it will change
what is observed now to what it will be when you get there.

Then you launch and you look out the damn windscreen and decide where
you can and can't fly.

The single most critical data XM provides to IFR flight is location
and direction of embedded cells at update rates faster than what
Center gets.

I'll repeat this to be more clear -- GPS and XM are tools that should
support/confirm/ and sometimes -- in minor ways -- correct what you --
as the pilot -- already know.

If that's not the case you are placing undue dependence on the
technology and shirking your responsibilities and legal requirements
as PIC.


Dan Mc

> You're not a curmudgeon -- you're a Luddite.

Why thank you.

On Mar 30, 10:44 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
> > You're not a curmudgeon -- you're a Luddite.
>
> No, he's an aviator, and you are an idiot.
>
> Bertie

Why thank you. That means something coming from you!

:-)

Dan Mc

Dan > wrote in news:440d6b5a-c9e2-42dd-83b5-
:

> On Mar 30, 10:44 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>
>> > You're not a curmudgeon -- you're a Luddite.
>>
>> No, he's an aviator, and you are an idiot.
>>
>> Bertie
>
> Why thank you. That means something coming from you!
>

Hey lots of aviators aren't all that bright!
;)

Bertie giveth and Bertie taketh away.

Bertie
>
>

On Mar 31, 8:56 am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:

> > Why thank you. That means something coming from you!
>
> Hey lots of aviators aren't all that bright!
> ;)

Bright is as bright does and says.

That brings up an interesting phenomenon -- there seems to be a bias
towards intelligence -- but not too much.

We all know the "natural stick" who "get's it" quickly but never goes
past the physical skill.

Then there are the really smart ones tend to over-analyze and get
brain cramps.

Then there are the really, really dumb ones -- we should call them
"maxwells"

Flying VFR into marginal weather without the ability to climb into the
murk and call the nice folks on the dark room is really, really,
gambling with your life and those who are with you...
I have pushed Jay <and others> several times to get the IR...
XM will not bail someone out if the air suddenly turns opaque all
around you - and it can do that in just minutes...

A case in point: on a Sunday night we were flying West along Lake Erie
from Northern NY state with my wife, daughter and her husband and the
weather was snotty and getting worse... I had suggested we call it a
day and continue on Monday, but Luan and Mike were determined to get
home that night and kept whining... I let myself get pushed beyond my
good judgement... So there we were, 15-20 miles West of Cleveland-
Hopkins and 5 miles offshore, pitch black night, solid overcast, dead
smooth ride as promised by FSS, you could see lights sparkling along
the shore... I looked down at my Howie Keefe and shuffled pages around
so I had the proper IFR low level enroute and the approach plate for a
planned landing at Port Clinton about 40 miles ahead... This probably
took 30-45 seconds of fiddling... I looked up and saw - nothing -
nada, zilch, zippo... It was impenetrable purple in every direction...
And while I sat there with a stupid look on my face for maybe 10
seconds (I had automatically started instrument scan so no one else in
the plane noticed anything had changed) I knew the brown stuff had hit
the fan...
Long story short, FSS was apologetic when I called them later as they
had not predicted the lake to go ballistic <which didn't help me a bit
at the time>.. The FSS specialist said he had many years in the Great
Lakes and had never seen the lake just explode like it did that
night...
I already had Cleveland ATC dialed on the second radio with the volume
down <old habits>... Turned up the volume and told the nice man in the
dark room that I was wading in brown stuff... He had me climb into
the murk and gave me a vector towards the IAF for the ILS to 24L and
as I climbed and turned to that direction it only took a moment to get
the approach plate on top and dial up the ILS and the DME... As it
turned out we popped out of some scud at 7 miles from the airport and
there was a 777 off to our right shooting the ILS <he looked like a
christmas tree he had so many lights on> so I just made a curving
right and followed him down until I picked up the rabbit...

Now, could ATC have vectored me in if I were a VFR pilot? Maybe...
Maybe not... By the time they vectored a confused and scared VFR pilot
the CB that pounded across the field ten minutes after we landed might
have been a real problem...

denny

Dan > wrote in
:

> On Mar 30, 10:40 pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
>> That's funny. I just flew my family transcontinentally 2500 miles in
>> a single-piston-engine spam-can, all VFR, over a six day period,
>> during the most weather-variable time of year, using the best
>> technology available -- and you're saying that using this technology
>> makes me a "crayola-viator"?
>
> You certainly are a Crayola-viator if you simply followed the magenta
> line and avoided the yellow and the red.
>
> Do those colors *mean* anything to you?
>
> Dude -- I *design* new technologies for the US Navy in my current
> engineering job.
>
> BUT -- and please read carefully -- VFR or IFR pilots who cannot
> already "know" in their heads what the XM is displaying are poor
> pilots who lack the understanding of weather required to fly cross
> country.
>


Exactly. All those toys are tools to be used to expand that picture, not
replace it. We're seeing more and more tits like this in the profession
and it scares me. When they're with me its fine, since I can smack then
when they're doing something I don't like, but a lot of them are left
seat now and the guy in the right subscribes to the same sort of thing.
The nav side is even more scary, IMO. I can clearly see situational
awareness decreasing as the pink string takes over completely. Guys are
starting to slavishly feed the boxes to make the pink string do what
they want without any real idea of where it is taking them in real
terms. This is basically what caused the Cali accident.

Bertie

Matt Whiting > wrote in
:

> Jay Honeck wrote:
>>>> I would NEVER have attempted that flight "pre-XM", simply because
>>>> I'd be trying to paint a picture of weather in my head from a radio
>>>> briefing (IF
>>>> you could even get ahold of Flight Service), and you'd have no idea
>>>> of the
>>>> "big picture" that live XM paints so wonderfully for you.
>>>
>>> Wait -- are you serious?
>>
>> Completely. XM weather gives you a weather picture that is
>> absolutely unparalleled in GA aircraft. Before we had it, we would
>> have stayed in Pensacola. After we had it, the flight from Pensacola
>> to St. Pete was completely routine.
>
> Jay, you need some remedial weather analysis and flight planning
> training.

Guess that means getting back into his go kart come MSFS sim and a
couple of views of "Captains of the Clouds" before he gets to go flying
again...

Bertie

Dan > wrote in news:0234b8dd-7e57-415a-bad8-
:

> On Mar 31, 8:56 am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
>> > Why thank you. That means something coming from you!
>>
>> Hey lots of aviators aren't all that bright!
>> ;)
>
> Bright is as bright does and says.
>
> That brings up an interesting phenomenon -- there seems to be a bias
> towards intelligence -- but not too much.
>
> We all know the "natural stick" who "get's it" quickly but never goes
> past the physical skill.
>
> Then there are the really smart ones tend to over-analyze and get
> brain cramps.



Yeah, I know what you mean. It's a rare guy who has all the talents in
equal and generous proportion. I can count the ones I've met on one
hand. One stands out in particualr he was a relatively famous drummer
before he went flying!


>
> Then there are the really, really dumb ones -- we should call them
> "maxwells"

I don't like to nail myself down to one name for them.

Bertie
>
>

On Mar 31, 9:03 am, Denny > wrote:

> Flying VFR into marginal weather without the ability to climb into the
> murk and call the nice folks on the dark room is really, really,
> gambling with your life and those who are with you...
> I have pushed Jay <and others> several times to get the IR...
> XM will not bail someone out if the air suddenly turns opaque all
> around you - and it can do that in just minutes...

Why would you settle for a level of training as a pilot that is
limited to "VFR only" unless you were staying near the patch or
limiting your trips and airplane choices?

Even if you never intend to fly IMC, the added precision, knowledge,
and overall fitting into the system that IFR provides is worth its
weight in gold.

Aviation is all about options. The IFR ticket adds a whole passel of
options.


Dan Mc

It's pretty clear to me that jay did have the big picture in his mind.
The XM kept him on top of it far better than getting updates on the
radio. XM is a too powerfull to ignore.

Will somebody make it their so reliance of data for decision making?
Sometimes yes and sometimes it will end badly. Jay wasn't doing that and
never threw out common sense and experience. His SM was just extra
information available whenever he wanted it.

Nice trip. I am going to have to git me one of them things one day.

John

Dan wrote:
> On Mar 30, 9:51 pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
>
>
>>XM weather gives you a weather picture that is absolutely
>>unparalleled in GA aircraft.
>
>
> Yes, but...
>
> You -- as a pilot -- should have that "picture" in your mind, and be
> able to predict the changes, rates of changes, and the impact of those
> changes on your flight.
>
> XM will help you adjust that picture, and should help you acquire that
> skill more rapidly IF you take the approach that YOU have to know, and
> not rely on the XM.
>
> The XM -- as GPS -- should simply confirm what you already know.
>
> Curmudgeon lament follows:
>
> I guess it's here -- a whole generation of pilots following magenta
> lines who will now be looking to fly through green and avoid the red
> and yellow.
>
> We should call them Crayola-viators.
>
> Dan Mc
>
>
>
>

Denny wrote:


> A case in point:

weather was snotty and getting worse...

I had suggested we call it a
> day and continue on Monday,

I let myself get pushed beyond my
> good judgement..


And Jay doesn't go there.

Experience has taught me. If the winds are stronger than forcast, the wx
is moving faster than forcast too. And many others concerning the Lakes.

When you entered IMC, why not do a 180 degree turn? Why would you
think/wait for "atc to save you? I think here in Canada PP's are still
taught to do the 180 on instruments to maintain vfr. Least they succumb
in 178 seconds....

John

On Mar 31, 11:15 am, The Visitor >
wrote:
>
> When you entered IMC, why not do a 180 degree turn? Why would you
> think/wait for "atc to save you? I think here in Canada PP's are still
> taught to do the 180 on instruments to maintain vfr. Least they succumb
> in 178 seconds....
>
> John

US Student pilots are required to have 3 hours "under the hood" before
the PPL practical.

This is not meant to imply